Monday, November 14, 2005

Oh Tangled Web of Relationships (Or, Why Can't Martians and Venusians Speak The Same Language)

There are a couple good blogs out there that have been putting out some interesting columns on the differences between the genders, as well as dating advice and related topics. Check them out at:
http://12strings.blogspot.com (Jonathan Hodges)
and
http://christinehnat.blogspot.com (Christine Hnat)

I don't believe either of these two to be connected with Harvey Brown.

Christine discusses "dating in your mind," among other related topics, mostly from the female perspective. She says some good things. I would add, ladies, that if you are in a platonic relationship with a man (hereafter refered to as a friendship, although all romantic relationships should be grounded in brother-sister in Christ friendship as well) and you don't want to be -- if you want more from him, and he has expressed no interest in wanting more, then you should get out. You shouldn't have to carry that load. You shouldn't let yourself be strung along, which is what he is doing, rather he knows it or not. You should sever the unhealthy relationship and be open and honest with him about why you are doing so.

I do think it's interesting though, that whenever I read this kind of thing on a blog, whether Christine's or not, it is usually from the woman's perspective. I would submit to you that there is at least as much confusion, if not more, coming from Mars as there is from Venus.

In fact, in a recent match.com pole, people were asked two very telling questions (at least the responses were telling):

1. Who is more likely to misinterpret the intimacy of friendship for desire?
64% of respondents said "Men." Only 25% said "Women." 11% were undecided.

2. Who is better at keeping sex out of a platonic relationship?
Only 13% said "Men." 67% said "Women", leaving 20% undecided.

So there is certainly a lot of confusion among men when it comes to "hanging out." Many women like to have male buddies to do things with, as well as to "get the male point of view" on things. And many men are confused by this -- in short, they perhaps WOULD pursue, have pursued, or are pursuing, only to hear those words that we've all dreaded at some point or another: "I think we should just be friends." I say this not to disagree with Christine or any other woman who is rightly concerned about all the "hang-out," passive males, but to point out that it cuts both ways.

It's difficult, this modern age. Male-female friendships definitely make it harder to tell who wants who, and in what way they want them. It's not a good thing. And I say this as someone who has, and has had, wonderful friendships with women. I would have to say, though, that every significant friendship I've had has developed because one or both of us had given our hearts to someone else, and therefore there was no doubt from the start as to what direction our relationship would take -- it would be a platonic friendship. And then, of course, when one or the other of us had, at some point, become disengaged from the romantic relationship we were in, the platonic friendship had already developed to a significant point -- in other words, we already felt that platonic affection, and we already knew that our friendship was worth preserving, rather than ending because "it's not leading anywhere." In this fashion, I've even gained good friends when my female friends married.

It would be much harder, maybe fruitless, to begin a friendship with a woman when we were both completely free, unless we felt that the friendship could lead in a romantic direction. And of course, in that case, the man should certainly be upfront and intentional in his pursuit.

Jonathan's blog explores such topics as "why do women communicate more," "are men more visual?" and the big subject of Biblical manhood and womanhood. I love the story of how he and his girlfriend got together, and how he met her parents and sought her father's approval. You'll read some interesting comments from people who think this is an old-fashioned pattern of "patriarchal oppression," as well as comments from us patriarchal oppressors who think the young couple is off to a great start.

And I think even Harvey Brown would agree with that.

28 Comments:

At Mon Nov 14, 01:14:00 PM PST, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I do agree!

 
At Mon Nov 14, 04:17:00 PM PST, Blogger ckjolly said...

I've always thought that you were Harvey.

Thanks for the male perspective, Bobby.

 
At Mon Nov 14, 06:14:00 PM PST, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your Welcome!

 
At Mon Nov 14, 06:26:00 PM PST, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Whoops Your Welcome!

 
At Mon Nov 14, 07:08:00 PM PST, Blogger Laura said...

That's not really Bobby.
And seriously, both you fakers, it's "You're Welcome." As in "You Are Welcome," not as in "the welcome that belongs to you."

Grammatical mistakes... I think Tom may be behind this. ;)

 
At Mon Nov 14, 10:29:00 PM PST, Blogger Tom said...

Hah Onother accuser of The Tom!!!!! Hahahaha. I'm rollin.......

 
At Tue Nov 15, 05:58:00 AM PST, Blogger Bobby said...

Hahaha! Laura you are officially my Best Friend Of The Day for that post. That cracked me up.

But seriously, people, not only would I not say "your" when I meant "you're," but I wouldn't leave out the comma after "Whoops."

Might anyone have some serious thoughts on this post?

 
At Tue Nov 15, 06:03:00 AM PST, Blogger Laura said...

Ahem. This Particular occurence, not Harvey Brown in general. Just so we're clear.

 
At Tue Nov 15, 06:05:00 AM PST, Blogger Laura said...

Bobby, I just noticed that your comment-time-recorder thingy is on Pacific time. Are all of them (on Blogger, I mean)?

Hmmm... serious comments...

I'm about all commented out on this topic. I just think men should be men and women should quit blaming them for their personal problems.

 
At Tue Nov 15, 06:08:00 AM PST, Blogger Laura said...

At the risk of appearing like I'm commenting obsessively (which is only partly true), Bobby, I am happy to wear the title of Best Friend of the Day. Finally, my life has meaning.

 
At Tue Nov 15, 08:19:00 AM PST, Blogger Bobby said...

I thought you'd be pleased. And there is some truth to your provocative, serious comment.

I think that often times when we humans end up in a bad relationship or no relationship, we have actually ended up with what we really wanted.

 
At Tue Nov 15, 09:12:00 AM PST, Blogger Bethany said...

good post...I think Jonathan's approach to 'courting' is sweet but not very practical for the woman who lives States away from her parents...I asked my Dad once what he thought about a guy calling and asking for permission to date me (or giving him knowledge that he planned to date me)..He said, "Bethany, you are 32 years old, you can decide for yourself if you want to date a man or not." To that I said, "Thanks Dad..I'm going to start dating now." HA!

 
At Tue Nov 15, 09:32:00 AM PST, Blogger Bobby said...

Yes, I see what you're saying. I would echo Jonathan though, that permission and approval are not really the same.
I think that cultivating a relationship with potential in-laws is crucial and God-honoring. I think that advice and approval should be sought. If approval does not come, then the response should very carefully and prayerfully be considered.
But obviously if there are geographical limitations, then the degree to which a man can seek out his girlfriend's family will be slighter (which is not to say attempts shouldn't be made).

 
At Tue Nov 15, 10:40:00 AM PST, Blogger ckjolly said...

try having your parents live an ocean away, Bethy. While I would love my beloved to have a loving relationship with my own parents ... well, let's just hope that he's a creative individual who will do the best he can.

 
At Tue Nov 15, 12:57:00 PM PST, Blogger Bobby said...

Tell him to start a blog called "I Love Christine And I Hope You Approve," and email the blog address to your parents.

Then we can all see the dialogue. That would be an interesting case study.

 
At Tue Nov 15, 02:30:00 PM PST, Blogger Jason Ramage said...

I don't see that it's necessary to ask parent's permission just to go on a date. I'm not against the idea of doing so, but I would question whether your expectations for the relationship are set too high too early if your asking the father for permission to buy her dinner.

Now, it's definitely wise to get to know the family if the relationship actually goes from "a date" to "dating." (Some people don't know the difference between those two words, and if you think "dating" is the plural of "date," then you're one of those people.) But as far as getting a verbal blessing from them, I think it's only necessary when you're ready to propose. Like the actual proposal, you should know what the answer's going to be :)

 
At Tue Nov 15, 04:08:00 PM PST, Blogger ckjolly said...

i LOVE that idea ... the "I Love Christine and I Hope You Approve" blog ... it would be so intellectually stimulating ... like observing lab rats. i admit that my father and i have spent many hours concocting humorous ways to make life a little more difficult for my intended.

Jason - In a patriarchal system, the father protects his daughters. My father is responsible for my safety. If the man wishing to pursue me is of questionable character, it is my father's responsibility to put a halt to it. It's a loving act.

Now asking me out for a cup of joe ... that's not the point. That's just two people getting to know each other. But when his intentions become such that he'd like to see the relationship go further ... maybe to the point of marriage ... that's when there needs to be communication between the two men in my life.

That can be accomplished through email or the phone ... but I've been told that a request for my hand in marriage would have to be IN person.

These are choices that we decided as a family ... my father did not impose any of these things on me ... but as a family we sat down and discussed our options ... this was the approach we chose to take in which we felt would honor God and each other.

 
At Tue Nov 15, 06:32:00 PM PST, Blogger Jason Ramage said...

I would classify going for coffee or whatever as a date, but not necessarily in the romantic sense. A date is just a predetermined time and place to meet, like a lunch date. That's why I thought it sounded kinda silly to ask for a father's permission for just a date.

I definitely agree that the request for a hand in marriage needs to be in person. I also have learned through the experiences of my roommates, both of whom have proposed within the last six months or so, that it's very difficult for the guy to keep possession of the ring after he's taken it home from the jeweler. It's like the opposite of Lord of the Rings, because the guy wants to get rid of it as soon as possible (okay, maybe not a good analogy, but hopefully it was funny). So what did one of my roommates do? He asked for her hand in marriage over the phone the morning of the day he planned to propose!

Of course, this guy is from California, where blue jeans is considered formal wear and they think marrying your cousin is gross. They really should be more open minded over there. Regardless, it seems the simple solution would be to entrust the ring with either a friend you absolutely trust (like the intended best man or your father) or a safe deposit box.

Or it could be buried somewhere in the woods of Cherokee Park, requiring GPS coordinates to find it again (like letterboxing or geocaching).

 
At Tue Nov 15, 06:48:00 PM PST, Blogger Laura said...

I'd rather have a potential suitor ask my mom... I think my dad would have a coronary on the spot, and then my "beloved" would be left desperately trying to remember if you should do CPR first or call 911 first.

And that "I Love Christine" blog idea is genius. Patent it quick! Then you'll get royalties every time someone wants to pursue Christine, which will be frequently. That "IN person" thing might sort of put a damper on the surprise of the proposal though:

Christine: So, beloved of mine, what are we doing this Friday night?
Beloved: Well, my little honey-bunny, I'm afraid I won't be seeing you Friday.
C(crushed): Whyever not, pumpkin? (Rallying) Saturday?
B: No can do, baby cakes... (pulling at his collar) Is it hot in here?
C(now weeping): But angel-face! Don't you want to spend time with me?
B: Er... umm... Well, sugar muffin, I'm going... uh... out of town.
C: Darling, is that an airline ticket in your pocket?

Etc., etc. You see how it could spoil the surprise?

 
At Tue Nov 15, 07:42:00 PM PST, Blogger ckjolly said...

can anyone who really knows me ever see me having such a conversation?!! I laugh just imagining it. I wipe away tears at the ridiculousness. "angel-face"?!!

And no ... i actually once talked to my pastor's wife about it ... she didn't see any difficulty in it. her suggestion was that the two of us take a mission trip to help out my parents. he could slyly take my father to the side, etc. etc. etc.

Besides, I'd be horribly crushed if he went to Germany without me. i wouldn't be able to speak to him when he got back. instead i'd jump in his arms and kiss him all over his face ... except for the lips, of course. any godly woman would only save that for the wedding ceremony.

c'mon, laugh! i was joking.

 
At Tue Nov 15, 08:04:00 PM PST, Blogger Laura said...

Hahaha...

So was I, of course... no one says "honey-bunny," except my mom!

 
At Wed Nov 16, 10:12:00 AM PST, Blogger Bethany said...

In my eyes dating is getting to know a man well enough to know if you want to pursue marriage. I know everybody has a different interpretation. So, after dating for a bit and having a better idea of where we are headed, I would introduce him to my parents. The fact that I'm taking him home to meet my parents (I've never taken a guy home to meet my folks) would tell them that they should be getting to know him because there is a strong possiblity we could be married. If my parents saw an issue, I would honestly take it and pray about it. I don't think I could marry a man if my parents did not approve, I think too highly of them. However, I wouldn't need their opinion to start the whole process...that would just be too premature in my eyes. But, then again, I'm a bit older and so what might have worked in my late teens/early 20s isn't as realistic today.

Ok, I'm steppin' off the topic, feel like I've said my piece.

 
At Wed Nov 16, 10:13:00 AM PST, Blogger Bobby said...

Everyone knows real men don't say "honey-bunny." They say "pookie-wookie."

Jason, it's interesting how many different connotations the word "date" has taken on. I pretty much agree with you: having a date is not the same as "dating." Most of the time when people say they are "dating" someone, they mean what used to be spoken of as "going steady."

But even just saying "we're having a date" sounds a little funny to me if there is no romantic connotation. Not that it HAS to have that connotation, but I couldn't see me, in a normal conversation, saying that a female buddy and I "had a date where we saw X movie or went to X restaurant." I'd probably just say "So-and-so and I went to X."

On the other hand, if it were some kind of official or formal event, I might say "So-and-so agreed to be my date," because implied in that is the condition "So-and-so is my friend, and since I'm not dating someone, she was kind enough to go with me to the ball," or whatever.

I'm always interested in the different connotations of words. Fascinating, in an admittedly nerdy way.

 
At Wed Nov 16, 10:15:00 AM PST, Blogger Bobby said...

And a good piece of commentary it was, Bethany. I agree.

 
At Wed Nov 16, 10:37:00 AM PST, Blogger Laura said...

Bobby, it also seems to be true that the word in question carries different connotations in different circles -- like among Christians vs. non-Christians, or even among one variety (interpret that as you will) of Christian or another.

Is it sacreligious of me to agree with Bethy even though I'm in my 20s?

 
At Wed Nov 16, 12:15:00 PM PST, Blogger Tom said...

As the saying goes when you marry you also marry the family. But not all relationships are made to go well with the other family involved. As some familes are so messed up one may want out of it so this would be an issue. I know there are some parents that ruin marriages and relationships from thier own selfishness.

But in a healthy or at least semi-healthy christian relationship meeting the family is important I beleive. Even at some point into a relationship when marriage starts to become an issue Family becomes very important.

Personally I want to be involved with both sets of families (mine and hers) and if that is not working out one would then need to see if that the two can start a new healthy strong family in Christ.

THe dating game is hard enough these days with all the playas out there, and then once we throw God into the mix, difficult does not even do it justice. It then becomes so much more than a marriage and relationship.

 
At Wed Nov 16, 12:41:00 PM PST, Blogger Bobby said...

Cheryl: actually, the ball is at X.

Both Cheryl and Tom bring up good points: in this current moral/ societal climate, not every family is healthy or intact. Some parents are unable or unwilling to provide the kind of support, blessing, and advice we've been talking about. But Jesus said that those who lost those things, along with houses and lands, for the sake of the Gospel, would receive them many times over. I believe that we receive those things through the Body of Christ -- the Church.

And this goes, in a way, with a post from Kristin's blog a month or two ago, where she talked about how the men of a church community should treat the women. We are brothers and sisters. I know I would very much rely on the advice of my sisters regarding a girl I was interested in. We're all supposed to look out for each other.

 
At Sat Nov 19, 08:57:00 PM PST, Blogger Jason Ramage said...

Bobby likes to take his dates on buried treasure hunts... aargh! X marks the spot!

I've been at the Covington Eucharistic Retreat this weekend and on the book table I noticed a titled that made me laugh: "I Gave Dating a Chance." I guess it's some sort of reply to the "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" fiasco :)

 

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